So We’re Still Undergrads?

Undergrad degree, check.  LSAT, check.  Fourteen thousand three hundred and twenty-six dollar tuition, check.  Still considered an undergraduate, check.  WHAT??!!  Still considered an undergrad?

Welcome to The University of Western Ontario, where law, dental, medical, and business students in professional programs are all lumped in with undergraduate students.  Knowing where we stand is easy part, finding out why and how to change it becomes much like a Tom & Jerry (wow did I just date myself?) cartoon of pointing fingers.

This article has been brewing (or perhaps festering) in my brain since the first week of my 1L year.  Never before had I needed a parking pass during my undergrad days of the 90’s, however, entering school as a “mature” student, I now have a car.  I went and purchased my parking pass only to find out that my tuition, nearly three times the undergrad rate, got me exactly nothing.

I attempted to fill out my parking pass, but stopped when it asked if I was an undergrad or graduate student.  Hmm, no professional student designation?  Figuring that I am in law school, I checked “graduate.”  When I handed my form in I was met with a lovely lady who politely handed my application back and told me that law students are considered undergrads.  As such I would have to fight to obtain a parking position in Springett.

“Don’t worry we’re adding a bunch of spots” I was told.  So I carried on my merry way, drove to classes the next day, circled the parking lot like a buzzard, only to realize that ALL of the added spots were taken as well.  I was late for class that day as I had a choice of parking behind Althouse (Teacher’s College) or at TD Waterhouse Stadium.  I choice Althouse.

I asked around and never really received a satisfactory answer last year, and I resolved my parking situation like many law student’s do.  But I’ll leave that out of print.

Fast forward to this year.  I gave it another try, went and purchased my parking pass and asked again why we are considered undergraduates.  The same lovely lady said “that’s the way it’s always been.”  Hmm, quite unacceptable.

I said that most of my classes start at 2 o’clock, and she looked at me with a sorry face and said the undergrad lot is usually full by noon.

Now as I write this, we just finished our third week of class, and while the undergrad lot at Springett is full by noon, I would estimate there are AT LEAST 100 vacant spots in the Graduate/Faculty lot on ANY given day.

So again, why are we considered undergraduates?  I decided to put my old detective hat on and hit the pavement to find out.

However, I’ve come up with another question in the meantime.  Not only do we have a parking disadvantage, but also we have a health plan disadvantage.

If anybody has compared our undergraduate health plan to the graduate health plan, you will note that they have benefits for dental and vision.  Two benefits that the undergraduate plan does not accommodate for.

While this may not be an issue to some, it is an issue for me.  A quick insurance lesson:  Many plans that your parents have provide coverage to you if you are in school fulltime and under 25.  For student’s like me, that leaves no dental or vision coverage, both of which I would take advantage of.

For now, I will just role this secondary issue into with the first

As I set out to answer these questions my first stop USC office.  I was met with “I don’t know, go and talk to the people at Info Source.”

Down the stairs I went, waited in line, and spoke with an employee who said they do not make the decisions go to the Registrar’s office, “they’re the ones who classify the students.”

Down the hall and into the nice shiny new Student Services building I proceeded.

Here, there was a compilation of three employees, who provided equally weak answers:

  1. “You are not considered a graduate because your program is an undergraduate degree.”  Perhaps with law (but is that not why we just changed to J.D.?  Again another article for another day), but not to so with medicine and dental.
  2. “The University Senate made that decision, go talk to them.”  Which was probably the best answer out of the four.
  3. “Go and speak with the Society of Graduate Student’s to see if they will make an exception to let you in.”  Riiiight, like that will happen.
  4. And the best, “because that’s what other universities classify law students as.”  Oh, so we’re just followers now.  Is that what higher education has amounted to?  Herd mentality?

In the end, I still do not know why professional schools within The University of Western Ontario are considered undergraduates, and equally it does not sit well with me.

I raise this question, not because I think law students (or any professional school) are better than undergraduates.  But if the answers above are any indication, how can you justify charging almost 15 000 per year in tuition when university officials see this program as an undergraduate program?

As a strike vote looms between faculty and the university, I can surely guarantee the UWO Faculty Association (UWOFA) will not accept such arguments as “the Provincial government said no raises this year, so no raises,” as a bargaining position in the upcoming contract negotiations, so why should we?

About the Author

Ryan Venables
Ryan Venables is a third year law student at the University of Western Ontario. He holds B.A. (2001) from the University of Western Ontario in Political Science and Sociology. Ryan was also enrolled in a M.A.- Journalism at the University of Western Ontario before withdrawing to attend law school. Before pursuing a formal education in law, Ryan served with the York Regional Police as a police officer for five years specializing in organized crime. He also served in the Special Investigations Section with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police for two years. His legal interests include employment/labour, criminal, family, and human rights law. When Ryan is done law school he will be articling with Ross & McBride LLP in Hamilton, Ontario.

7 Comments on "So We’re Still Undergrads?"

  1. I was always confused as to how the mere name change from LLB to JD magically transforms the same degree from bachelor-level to doctoral-level.

    I similarly tried to rename my BA to a PhD, but it didn’t work either. I was still lumped in with those lowly undergrads.

  2. I feel for you, Ryan.

    A number of things are particularly maddening about post-secondary parking. Chiefly, they’ll sell more passes than spaces.

    Concerning your undergrad status, it’s particularly difficult to get this changed (and quite frustrating since you’ll be graduating with a J.D. not a B.A.). But, if you’re looking to get onto the health and dental plan, try the graduate students society. It might not be too late in the year to pay for their plan and get on board. There have been exceptions made at other schools. For example, when I sat on the WLU GSA Board of Directors, we approved a dozen NPSIA students to get onto our plan as they were studying at Laurier’s Brantford Campus. That’s your best bet mate.

    Good luck.

  3. This is simple….they are not considered graduate programs because there remains the possibility of being admitted without having completed an undergraduate degree. Until completion of a degree is a prerequisite, the programs will maintain undergraduate status as a means of respecting the lowest common denominator. The fact that most who are admitted have a degree or two, doesn’t qualify the whole group.

    As for the parking thing, life isn’t always fair…which as a law school student I assume you would know better than most through your case studies.

  4. One thing I meant to add…congrats on finding a “way” around the parking rules “like most law students” at Western……looks great on the motivations and morals of those in the profession.

  5. Easy fair enough on the fact that you do not need an undergrad degree but I think you would be hard pressed to find any at UWO who do not have at least a three year degree. The only exception in my understanding is for mature or potential students who fall within the access areas. However that does not explain the medical and dental students being classed as undergrads, as I am going to assume that they have to have a degree before admittance.

    As for the second comment, I’m going to assume that you’re being sarcastic… Dont assume the worst. I like many (which is quite different than most…. Ohh LSAT memories) students came up with a creative way around the situation…

  6. Easy Answer | November 2, 2010 at 3:21 pm |

    Shouldn’t ever assume Mr. Venables…an undergraduate degree is not a requirement for any of the professional schools you mention. This is why the students in the programs are not considered graduate students.

  7. Vegetable of the Morning | November 11, 2010 at 2:27 am |

    I agree with the post in the sense that the professional programs should be given some standing above the general undergraduate programs (with regard to parking and sundry matters, at the very least) because they are, in fact, advanced degrees; limited entry programs with some post-secondary education required. However, they remain classified as undergraduate degrees because they are, quite literally, undergraduate degrees: in terms of the disciplines they occupy, they are the junior, entry level degrees. An LLB (or JD, regardless of the Latin applied to it) remains the introductory degree in law: the LLM and PhD/JSD are the graduate legal programs proper, designed for the purposes of advanced knowledge of the field, and as the formal scholarly research credential. The same holds in Medicine and Dentistry; also professional programs, but not the formal, advanced research-oriented programs which are geared toward highly specialized knowledge somewhere in the field: these goals would again be satisfied via the MSc/PhD route. This is not to say that they are undergraduate programs on par with your average BA/BSc/Bwhatever, but ‘undergraduate’ is designated in context of the hierarchy within the specific discipline, not in comparison to all other degrees that exist.

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