My lawyerly friends…..if you want to know the gist of what Mr. Day was talking about, you may have to wait until your articling days are over.
I’ll make it easy for you. People who have had crimes committed against them, WILL NOT REPORT it if the hassle is greater than the return. Why report a crime if you know the courts will treat the offender too leniently? Or if the police refuse to investigate? (the police refuse to investigate crimes they know judges will ignore)
If people knew that something would be done to provide satisfaction they would be more apt to seek justice.
I’m from Victoria and we had one female offender who committed over 200 car thefts and break ins to support her drug habit. She never went to jail.
Why report a property crime when you know that people like this will not be held accountable? It’s not worth the effort in Canada.
We need to have criminals held accountable for their actions so that people WILL report the crimes against them.
The extra jails are to house those who may now be held accountable, and to house those who will no longer be getting a slap on the wrist.
I don’t care what “experts” you use as a reference, keeping criminals in jail DOES reduce crime, even if it does little for recidivism.
A career criminal who spends a few extra years in jail…..is a criminal who will NOT use those few extra years to break into your house.
I know that lawyers like to keep a lot of criminals on the street (it’s good for business after all)but the rest of us who have to deal with them want them locked up.
So James, spending $5B annually to provide extra prison space for people that are not reported to police and therefore not subject to investigation is the way to go? Sounds right to me. After all, we have an historic precedent here. In 1933 the German government radically expanded prison space and then somehow found a way to fill all those shiny new spaces.
Interesting how those initially ‘found to be accountable’ were political foes of the regime.
Social engineering at its finest? If we build them we will make you come? Money well spent?
Unrepentent Cynic wrote:
“After all, we have an historic precedent here. In 1933 the German government radically expanded prison space”
Ahhh…the old Nazi allegory. That didn’t take long, but I can’t say it was unexpected.
Lawrence wrote:
“Good ol’ American justice, eh James?”
No Lawrence,simple justice is all we are looking for. For example, if someone is breaking into homes….you give them their own for about 5 years. As it stands now, we have the same criminals committing the same crimes repeatedly. And why shouldn’t they? If they can make thousands of dollars selling items they have stolen and spend little if any time in jail, what is their incentive to stop?
I do admire this site though. You have a poster (me) who is not a bleeding heart…and what is the response?
Compare him to the Nazi’s, AND get an anti-American jibe in.
Stockwell’s comments make sense only in the context of the Conservative Party’s agenda: in order to appear to be tough on crime and to appeal to the paranoids who form it’s base, the CPs have to invent the crime to be tough on. It’s the same strategy employed to great, and frightening, effect in Arizona. So, James, if you object to being likened to the Nazis (fair enough), are you comfortable keeping company with the bigots and lunatics who support Arizona’s immigration law?
And, it’s worth noting, Stockwell doesn’t say which crimes are apparently going unreported. You site b and es. So, I assume you limit your example to uninsured homes?
Jimmy asked:
“are you comfortable keeping company with the bigots and lunatics who support Arizona’s immigration law?”
Just because you call them bigots and lunatics does not make it so. In fact, these same bigots and lunatics to which you refer, are actually citizens of the state who actually believe in the law.
If you had someone trespassing on your property…would you be a bigot or lunatic for wanting them gone?
As for unreported crimes…..they happen every day. It is no surprise. As for Break and Enters…..one shouldn’t have to rely on insurance to take care of things.
If someone steals your car…who do you call first? The cops, or your broker?
That seems to be the main difference ideologically on the right and left of the political spectrum.
Right – people shouldn’t steal. If they steal and get caught, they need to make amends and go to jail.
Left. – People sometimes steal, and that is understandable. Most of them are poor, or from broken homes. We need to sympathize with them and try to rehabilitate them.
Of course, those on the Left usually only feel that way until it is their property that is damaged or stolen. Their son that is savaged in a gang attack, or their wife who is assaulted in the streets.
Unreported Crime – probably occurs more often that reported crime. (though they would mostly be property crimes or minor assaults. And of course…Rape)
umm even if supposed unreported crimes were all reported would perpetrators really go to jail. Most unreported crimes are minor (minor property damage, shop-lifting, etc.). I don’t think the justice system is going to send somebody who stole a $30 t-shirt to a penitentiary. That would be incredibly expensive for the tax-payer and psychologically damaging for the perpetrator. Our courts are already jam-packed with more serious issues that need to be resolved quicker so victims get justice. Let’s be realistic here. We’re not talking about serious and/or violent crimes when we talk of unreported crime. It was bone-headed for Stockwell to refer to them not only because they’re irrelevant since they’re not reported, but also because even if they were reported they’re not serious enough to warrant the involvement of the justice system.
Jacob1 wrote:
“I don’t think the justice system is going to send somebody who stole a $30 t-shirt to a penitentiary. That would be incredibly expensive for the tax-payer and psychologically damaging for the perpetrator.”
Jacob, if the person who stole that $30 shirt had stolen over 200 shirts just like it over the last couple of years…then yes, they should go to jail. You are taking it on a case by case basis, but it is the PATTERN you should be looking at. Besides, the margin’s for most stores are very low. Having someone steal from you repeatedly is very damaging to businesses over time.
You address the punishment for the perpetrator as being very damaging psychologically, which basically proves the point I made previously. You are sympathizing with the criminal, and NOT the victim.
As long as our legal system does that..victims of crime will not respect the courts any more than they respect the lawyers.
Is theft and shoplifting on the same scale as muder or rape? Of course not, but that doesn’t mean you ignore the problem when it presents itself.
Some of these new prisons will be for minor offences. Locking someone up in there will show that though minor in nature, all crime is taken seriously.
That way, the theft of a shirt that costs $20 will not result in an increase in price to $40 to help defray the costs of crime.
My lawyerly friends…..if you want to know the gist of what Mr. Day was talking about, you may have to wait until your articling days are over.
I’ll make it easy for you. People who have had crimes committed against them, WILL NOT REPORT it if the hassle is greater than the return. Why report a crime if you know the courts will treat the offender too leniently? Or if the police refuse to investigate? (the police refuse to investigate crimes they know judges will ignore)
If people knew that something would be done to provide satisfaction they would be more apt to seek justice.
I’m from Victoria and we had one female offender who committed over 200 car thefts and break ins to support her drug habit. She never went to jail.
Why report a property crime when you know that people like this will not be held accountable? It’s not worth the effort in Canada.
So James, I get it. We need $13B in new prisons to house all the bad guys and gals that nobody is willing to report. Makes sense to me.
No Cynic,
We need to have criminals held accountable for their actions so that people WILL report the crimes against them.
The extra jails are to house those who may now be held accountable, and to house those who will no longer be getting a slap on the wrist.
I don’t care what “experts” you use as a reference, keeping criminals in jail DOES reduce crime, even if it does little for recidivism.
A career criminal who spends a few extra years in jail…..is a criminal who will NOT use those few extra years to break into your house.
I know that lawyers like to keep a lot of criminals on the street (it’s good for business after all)but the rest of us who have to deal with them want them locked up.
So James, spending $5B annually to provide extra prison space for people that are not reported to police and therefore not subject to investigation is the way to go? Sounds right to me. After all, we have an historic precedent here. In 1933 the German government radically expanded prison space and then somehow found a way to fill all those shiny new spaces.
Interesting how those initially ‘found to be accountable’ were political foes of the regime.
Social engineering at its finest? If we build them we will make you come? Money well spent?
Good ol’ American justice, eh James?
Because it’s working so well for them that we really ought to be taking a page out of their book.
Unrepentent Cynic wrote:
“After all, we have an historic precedent here. In 1933 the German government radically expanded prison space”
Ahhh…the old Nazi allegory. That didn’t take long, but I can’t say it was unexpected.
Lawrence wrote:
“Good ol’ American justice, eh James?”
No Lawrence,simple justice is all we are looking for. For example, if someone is breaking into homes….you give them their own for about 5 years. As it stands now, we have the same criminals committing the same crimes repeatedly. And why shouldn’t they? If they can make thousands of dollars selling items they have stolen and spend little if any time in jail, what is their incentive to stop?
I do admire this site though. You have a poster (me) who is not a bleeding heart…and what is the response?
Compare him to the Nazi’s, AND get an anti-American jibe in.
Congrats….you still fail to surprise.
James,
Stockwell’s comments make sense only in the context of the Conservative Party’s agenda: in order to appear to be tough on crime and to appeal to the paranoids who form it’s base, the CPs have to invent the crime to be tough on. It’s the same strategy employed to great, and frightening, effect in Arizona. So, James, if you object to being likened to the Nazis (fair enough), are you comfortable keeping company with the bigots and lunatics who support Arizona’s immigration law?
And, it’s worth noting, Stockwell doesn’t say which crimes are apparently going unreported. You site b and es. So, I assume you limit your example to uninsured homes?
Jimmy asked:
“are you comfortable keeping company with the bigots and lunatics who support Arizona’s immigration law?”
Just because you call them bigots and lunatics does not make it so. In fact, these same bigots and lunatics to which you refer, are actually citizens of the state who actually believe in the law.
If you had someone trespassing on your property…would you be a bigot or lunatic for wanting them gone?
As for unreported crimes…..they happen every day. It is no surprise. As for Break and Enters…..one shouldn’t have to rely on insurance to take care of things.
If someone steals your car…who do you call first? The cops, or your broker?
That seems to be the main difference ideologically on the right and left of the political spectrum.
Right – people shouldn’t steal. If they steal and get caught, they need to make amends and go to jail.
Left. – People sometimes steal, and that is understandable. Most of them are poor, or from broken homes. We need to sympathize with them and try to rehabilitate them.
Of course, those on the Left usually only feel that way until it is their property that is damaged or stolen. Their son that is savaged in a gang attack, or their wife who is assaulted in the streets.
Unreported Crime – probably occurs more often that reported crime. (though they would mostly be property crimes or minor assaults. And of course…Rape)
umm even if supposed unreported crimes were all reported would perpetrators really go to jail. Most unreported crimes are minor (minor property damage, shop-lifting, etc.). I don’t think the justice system is going to send somebody who stole a $30 t-shirt to a penitentiary. That would be incredibly expensive for the tax-payer and psychologically damaging for the perpetrator. Our courts are already jam-packed with more serious issues that need to be resolved quicker so victims get justice. Let’s be realistic here. We’re not talking about serious and/or violent crimes when we talk of unreported crime. It was bone-headed for Stockwell to refer to them not only because they’re irrelevant since they’re not reported, but also because even if they were reported they’re not serious enough to warrant the involvement of the justice system.
Jacob1 wrote:
“I don’t think the justice system is going to send somebody who stole a $30 t-shirt to a penitentiary. That would be incredibly expensive for the tax-payer and psychologically damaging for the perpetrator.”
Jacob, if the person who stole that $30 shirt had stolen over 200 shirts just like it over the last couple of years…then yes, they should go to jail. You are taking it on a case by case basis, but it is the PATTERN you should be looking at. Besides, the margin’s for most stores are very low. Having someone steal from you repeatedly is very damaging to businesses over time.
You address the punishment for the perpetrator as being very damaging psychologically, which basically proves the point I made previously. You are sympathizing with the criminal, and NOT the victim.
As long as our legal system does that..victims of crime will not respect the courts any more than they respect the lawyers.
Is theft and shoplifting on the same scale as muder or rape? Of course not, but that doesn’t mean you ignore the problem when it presents itself.
Some of these new prisons will be for minor offences. Locking someone up in there will show that though minor in nature, all crime is taken seriously.
That way, the theft of a shirt that costs $20 will not result in an increase in price to $40 to help defray the costs of crime.
As an aside, here is one of the reasons people have no respect for our justice system as it currently stands.
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/breakingnews/port-colborne-ont-man-faces-charges-after-home-attacked-with-molotov-cocktails-101349084.html