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	<title>Comments on: The Russia-Georgia war and the international law</title>
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	<link>http://lawiscool.com/2008/08/17/the-russia-georgia-war-and-the-international-law/?nucrss=1</link>
	<description>The law school blog and podcast from Canada</description>
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		<title>By: Omar Ha-Redeye</title>
		<link>http://lawiscool.com/2008/08/17/the-russia-georgia-war-and-the-international-law/comment-page-1/#comment-2817</link>
		<dc:creator>Omar Ha-Redeye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:32:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawiscool.com/?p=637#comment-2817</guid>
		<description>Russia recognized the independance of breakaway regions of Georgia &lt;a href=&quot;http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7582181.stm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;today&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Russia recognized the independance of breakaway regions of Georgia <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7582181.stm" rel="nofollow">today</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Aleksandre Ramishvili</title>
		<link>http://lawiscool.com/2008/08/17/the-russia-georgia-war-and-the-international-law/comment-page-1/#comment-2806</link>
		<dc:creator>Aleksandre Ramishvili</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:42:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawiscool.com/?p=637#comment-2806</guid>
		<description>Can this be the scenario:
South ossetian militaries under the Russian peacekeeping control had been bombing Georgian vilaages previous to the conflict. Georgian authorities several times announsed this to Russia.On 7 august Georgian forces directed their artilery shelling to the points where the atacks had been comming from, i.e. Tskhinvali(it is absolutely possible to bomb Georgian troops from there) making the Russian party to the peacekeeping agreement in breach of it for failure to restrain the ossetian millitia.Casualties would deffinitely follow.Russia announced to defend its civilians after georgian troops announced ceasefire for several hours to ensure the civilians were out of the war theatre. there was no civilians left in the city when Russia decided to defend them. and if there were why did they bombed the city after?So there can be points identified:1.The peacekeeping mandate became void for failure from russian party to enforce it. 2. civilians were out of the war zone when Russia announced the nessecity to defend them.3.Tskhinvali was ander effective control of Georgia before the Russian offencive making it de facto Georgian teritoty(not to mention the de iure recognition of it as Georgian teritory by Russia itself).and IN BELLO is another big subject to talk about.Thus I think Russia had no legal ground for use of force.But may be this case is the another event of international lawmaking without previous precedents,thus no authority can be mentioned here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can this be the scenario:<br />
South ossetian militaries under the Russian peacekeeping control had been bombing Georgian vilaages previous to the conflict. Georgian authorities several times announsed this to Russia.On 7 august Georgian forces directed their artilery shelling to the points where the atacks had been comming from, i.e. Tskhinvali(it is absolutely possible to bomb Georgian troops from there) making the Russian party to the peacekeeping agreement in breach of it for failure to restrain the ossetian millitia.Casualties would deffinitely follow.Russia announced to defend its civilians after georgian troops announced ceasefire for several hours to ensure the civilians were out of the war theatre. there was no civilians left in the city when Russia decided to defend them. and if there were why did they bombed the city after?So there can be points identified:1.The peacekeeping mandate became void for failure from russian party to enforce it. 2. civilians were out of the war zone when Russia announced the nessecity to defend them.3.Tskhinvali was ander effective control of Georgia before the Russian offencive making it de facto Georgian teritoty(not to mention the de iure recognition of it as Georgian teritory by Russia itself).and IN BELLO is another big subject to talk about.Thus I think Russia had no legal ground for use of force.But may be this case is the another event of international lawmaking without previous precedents,thus no authority can be mentioned here.</p>
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		<title>By: Pulat Yunusov</title>
		<link>http://lawiscool.com/2008/08/17/the-russia-georgia-war-and-the-international-law/comment-page-1/#comment-2698</link>
		<dc:creator>Pulat Yunusov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 00:29:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawiscool.com/?p=637#comment-2698</guid>
		<description>Thank you for your feedback.

You are correct that jus in bello and jus ad bellum must be distinguished. I could have pointed that out more clearly in my post.

I intended to discuss only the legality of Russia&#039;s resort to use of force against Georgia. Where our analysis leaves the issue of proportionality of use of force under jus ad bellum and enters the issue of armed forces&#039; conduct under jus in bello is a matter of debate. I would argue that it is not at all obvious that what Russian forces are doing right now is separate from Russia&#039;s original use of force against Georgia.

Your point seems to be, however, that even the original use of force was illegal because self-defence is legal only when the state&#039;s own territory is attacked. Do I understand you correctly? Does it mean that if Russian forces stationed in South Ossetia under an agreement with Georgia are attacked, Russia&#039;s use of force is always illegal? Can you cite an authority for that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for your feedback.</p>
<p>You are correct that jus in bello and jus ad bellum must be distinguished. I could have pointed that out more clearly in my post.</p>
<p>I intended to discuss only the legality of Russia&#8217;s resort to use of force against Georgia. Where our analysis leaves the issue of proportionality of use of force under jus ad bellum and enters the issue of armed forces&#8217; conduct under jus in bello is a matter of debate. I would argue that it is not at all obvious that what Russian forces are doing right now is separate from Russia&#8217;s original use of force against Georgia.</p>
<p>Your point seems to be, however, that even the original use of force was illegal because self-defence is legal only when the state&#8217;s own territory is attacked. Do I understand you correctly? Does it mean that if Russian forces stationed in South Ossetia under an agreement with Georgia are attacked, Russia&#8217;s use of force is always illegal? Can you cite an authority for that?</p>
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		<title>By: Gentian Zyberi</title>
		<link>http://lawiscool.com/2008/08/17/the-russia-georgia-war-and-the-international-law/comment-page-1/#comment-2694</link>
		<dc:creator>Gentian Zyberi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 22:26:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawiscool.com/?p=637#comment-2694</guid>
		<description>Mr. Yunusov,

I read with interest your post, since I was to some extent invited to do so. I&#039;d like to point out from the beginning that in your discussion you seem to blur the distinction between jus ad (contra) bellum and jus in bello. For the ones who are not so fond of Latin the first term relates to law on the use of force and the second term on the law of armed conflict. While the first is regulated under the UN Charter, the second part of the law of war is codified under the 1949 Geneva Conventions and the 1977 Additional Protocols. Whether resort to use of force is legal or not, once a conflict starts the parties are bound by the law of armed conflict and should abide by it.
Contrary to what you say what happened before the 8th of August is certainly relevant to assessing the escalation of the conflict into a full-fledged war.
South Ossetia is not Russian territory, so it is difficult to see how self-defence comes into play? Unless the self for Russia includes South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Until some days ago it did not. Is it that out of a sudden the notion of &#039;territorial integrity&#039; has no value whatsoever for Russia?
Russian attacks are clearly disproportionate and the Russian troops have certainly gone far beyond what was necessary to protect their peacekeepers and South Ossetians of Russian citizenship. Taking and holding the city of Gori and other Georgian cities under the pretext of maintaining security or removing a threat (?) is simply an excess of the use of force. Continuing military operations deep into Georgian territory and fortifying their positions days after a cease-fire and withdrawal of troops has been signed is a clear violation of international law. 
But as they say &#039;there is nothing new under the sun&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Yunusov,</p>
<p>I read with interest your post, since I was to some extent invited to do so. I&#8217;d like to point out from the beginning that in your discussion you seem to blur the distinction between jus ad (contra) bellum and jus in bello. For the ones who are not so fond of Latin the first term relates to law on the use of force and the second term on the law of armed conflict. While the first is regulated under the UN Charter, the second part of the law of war is codified under the 1949 Geneva Conventions and the 1977 Additional Protocols. Whether resort to use of force is legal or not, once a conflict starts the parties are bound by the law of armed conflict and should abide by it.<br />
Contrary to what you say what happened before the 8th of August is certainly relevant to assessing the escalation of the conflict into a full-fledged war.<br />
South Ossetia is not Russian territory, so it is difficult to see how self-defence comes into play? Unless the self for Russia includes South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Until some days ago it did not. Is it that out of a sudden the notion of &#8216;territorial integrity&#8217; has no value whatsoever for Russia?<br />
Russian attacks are clearly disproportionate and the Russian troops have certainly gone far beyond what was necessary to protect their peacekeepers and South Ossetians of Russian citizenship. Taking and holding the city of Gori and other Georgian cities under the pretext of maintaining security or removing a threat (?) is simply an excess of the use of force. Continuing military operations deep into Georgian territory and fortifying their positions days after a cease-fire and withdrawal of troops has been signed is a clear violation of international law.<br />
But as they say &#8216;there is nothing new under the sun&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Pulat Yunusov</title>
		<link>http://lawiscool.com/2008/08/17/the-russia-georgia-war-and-the-international-law/comment-page-1/#comment-2668</link>
		<dc:creator>Pulat Yunusov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 19:31:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawiscool.com/?p=637#comment-2668</guid>
		<description>Whether South Ossetia attacked or was in any kind of warfare with Georgia before August 8 is irrelevant to the question of whether Georgia attacked Russia on August 8.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whether South Ossetia attacked or was in any kind of warfare with Georgia before August 8 is irrelevant to the question of whether Georgia attacked Russia on August 8.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnK</title>
		<link>http://lawiscool.com/2008/08/17/the-russia-georgia-war-and-the-international-law/comment-page-1/#comment-2667</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 19:10:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawiscool.com/?p=637#comment-2667</guid>
		<description>I think the author needs to check what happened on the 7th of August and on the 6th. It might even be a good idea to check what happened between the 1st and the 4th of August before saying what he has said here. 

What is said here is not the full story. It does not cover the parts where South Ossetia was using artillery on Georgain villages or evacuation people before the conflict. Hence what he say here is worthless in my opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the author needs to check what happened on the 7th of August and on the 6th. It might even be a good idea to check what happened between the 1st and the 4th of August before saying what he has said here. </p>
<p>What is said here is not the full story. It does not cover the parts where South Ossetia was using artillery on Georgain villages or evacuation people before the conflict. Hence what he say here is worthless in my opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: This Side of the Pond » Were Russia&#8217;s Attacks Legal?</title>
		<link>http://lawiscool.com/2008/08/17/the-russia-georgia-war-and-the-international-law/comment-page-1/#comment-2662</link>
		<dc:creator>This Side of the Pond » Were Russia&#8217;s Attacks Legal?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 14:31:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawiscool.com/?p=637#comment-2662</guid>
		<description>[...] thing out. Some Canadian law students have taken care of that, and on a site with a great title: Law is Cool. Plus, their banner includes Justice wearing sunglasses. That gives our monkey-headed Darwin a run [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] thing out. Some Canadian law students have taken care of that, and on a site with a great title: Law is Cool. Plus, their banner includes Justice wearing sunglasses. That gives our monkey-headed Darwin a run [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Lawrence Gridin</title>
		<link>http://lawiscool.com/2008/08/17/the-russia-georgia-war-and-the-international-law/comment-page-1/#comment-2657</link>
		<dc:creator>Lawrence Gridin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 05:06:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawiscool.com/?p=637#comment-2657</guid>
		<description>It is amazing how, through media obfuscation and White House spin doctoring, Russia has been made to look like the evil invader. 

Georgia is to blame for all of this. Let&#039;s not forget that.

Russia should probably not have crossed the Ossetian border into Georgia, but it was perfectly justified in using force to repel an invasion.

Considering Russia&#039;s history, military strength, and image in the Western world as something of a war-monger, we have to appreciate that Russia&#039;s response to Georgian aggression has been remarkably restrained.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is amazing how, through media obfuscation and White House spin doctoring, Russia has been made to look like the evil invader. </p>
<p>Georgia is to blame for all of this. Let&#8217;s not forget that.</p>
<p>Russia should probably not have crossed the Ossetian border into Georgia, but it was perfectly justified in using force to repel an invasion.</p>
<p>Considering Russia&#8217;s history, military strength, and image in the Western world as something of a war-monger, we have to appreciate that Russia&#8217;s response to Georgian aggression has been remarkably restrained.</p>
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		<title>By: jonny</title>
		<link>http://lawiscool.com/2008/08/17/the-russia-georgia-war-and-the-international-law/comment-page-1/#comment-2655</link>
		<dc:creator>jonny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 00:37:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawiscool.com/?p=637#comment-2655</guid>
		<description>I think it is important to appreciate the context in which this conflict takes place. NATO has been encroaching into former Russian territory since the breakup of the Soviet Union. Of course, Russia has stoked the fires of Ossetian independence and has essentially been in a tug of war with the West over all of its former territories. Also, the Russian justification that it is protecting is citizens can be viewed as convenient in that it is Russia which has fostered these links. Ultimately Georgia overplayed its hand but it is also possible that they will use this event to justify NATO membership.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it is important to appreciate the context in which this conflict takes place. NATO has been encroaching into former Russian territory since the breakup of the Soviet Union. Of course, Russia has stoked the fires of Ossetian independence and has essentially been in a tug of war with the West over all of its former territories. Also, the Russian justification that it is protecting is citizens can be viewed as convenient in that it is Russia which has fostered these links. Ultimately Georgia overplayed its hand but it is also possible that they will use this event to justify NATO membership.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Cooper</title>
		<link>http://lawiscool.com/2008/08/17/the-russia-georgia-war-and-the-international-law/comment-page-1/#comment-2654</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Cooper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 23:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawiscool.com/?p=637#comment-2654</guid>
		<description>I would look at Georgia&#039;s actions (and thus Russia&#039;s response) through the prism of the self-declared Republic of South Ossetia being an unrecognized &quot;de facto&quot; state similar to Somaliland, Taiwan, Northern Cyprus, et al.

Although lacking in international recognition such a &quot;de facto&quot; state nevertheless has a legal standing under international law. For instance, it is not free to violate jus cogens just as Georgia is also not free to do so. This is a 3 way street: Georgia can not use force against its own citizens unless in self defense, it can not do so against a recognized neighbor, and it can not do so against an unrecognized de-facto state neighbor. Not even to enforce a territorial claim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would look at Georgia&#8217;s actions (and thus Russia&#8217;s response) through the prism of the self-declared Republic of South Ossetia being an unrecognized &#8220;de facto&#8221; state similar to Somaliland, Taiwan, Northern Cyprus, et al.</p>
<p>Although lacking in international recognition such a &#8220;de facto&#8221; state nevertheless has a legal standing under international law. For instance, it is not free to violate jus cogens just as Georgia is also not free to do so. This is a 3 way street: Georgia can not use force against its own citizens unless in self defense, it can not do so against a recognized neighbor, and it can not do so against an unrecognized de-facto state neighbor. Not even to enforce a territorial claim.</p>
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